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Terri Agnew's Personal Meeting Room
Julie Bisland
28:16
Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Working Group call on Thursday, 24 October 2019 at 20:00 UTC for 90 minutes.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
28:19
Hopefully not too loud now ;-)
Julie Bisland
29:35
Wasn’t too loud at all, Cheryl :)
Julie Hedlund
29:50
DNS Abuse: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nIorSwzwom_yXvzWwo9pElsnFfK7bwcuYQq_Hur4Dls/edit?usp=sharing
Rubens Kuhl
33:24
Rec 13- Not directed at SubPro
Rubens Kuhl
33:31
Rec 14 - Outside of picket fence
Maxim Alzoba
34:27
I added few comments
Rubens Kuhl
34:36
Rec 15 - Absolute metrics for information security, including DNS abuse, not available from Computer Science, preventing establishing hard numbers.
Rubens Kuhl
35:41
Rec 17 - Feasible for registrar, registry and registry service provider, but not downwards from registrar (reseller, reseller of reseller etc.)
Maxim Alzoba
35:46
item 15 opens gates to blackmailing of ROs and RRs
Maxim Alzoba
36:12
and this itself creates danger to security and stability of the internet
Jim Prendergast
36:48
Can I ask a foundational question? What precipitated this sudden addition of DNS Abuse to the agenda? Was there outreach from ICANN Board or Staff on it? I dont recall it being part of the work plan when I checked a few weeks ago.
Maxim Alzoba
37:47
simple question, is it in our Charter?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
38:03
it is a focus of the CCT=RT
Rubens Kuhl
38:05
Rec 25 looks something targeted at the perceived backdooring of ideas in PICs, not at DNS abuse.
Jim Prendergast
38:52
ok - Im not disagreeing with the importance of the topic. Just caught off guard by the recent addition.
Maxim Alzoba
39:16
Could we go through the comments ?
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
39:21
the CCT-RT is the driver here
Maxim Alzoba
39:28
both
Rubens Kuhl
41:13
For this to be applied, it would need to be in the contract... the text itself says that.
Maxim Alzoba
41:27
if we invent things outside of a picket fence , there is no chance to see the work of this PDP approved
Maxim Alzoba
41:51
yes
Steve Chan
41:55
Correct Jeff
Rubens Kuhl
42:33
Maxim, pre-cogs can see crimes before they are committed. ;-)
Maxim Alzoba
42:35
I am not sure others have the same understanding
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
43:17
+1 Maxim, according to the details of the CCT-RT report, they ARE talking about activities that precede a potentially abusive registration.
Maxim Alzoba
43:44
yes
Maxim Alzoba
44:35
@Kristine, it is time to talk about it
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
44:45
such as perhaps the registration of a few thousand names at low cost in singe transactions I assume that is a prequi; to a *possible* suspicion of doubtful activity to follow but may be perfectly innocent as well...
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
44:59
That is how I nievly saw the term Proactive any way
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
45:22
sorry about y typos
Maxim Alzoba
46:02
@Cheryl, it is a typical behaviour of a reseller , who work with a portfolio manager before the launch of a program
Maxim Alzoba
46:06
works
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
46:22
like I said might be perfectly innocent BUT may not
Maxim Alzoba
46:57
last time we saw this behavior (as a Registrar) from one of the CyberSecurity companies
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
47:14
but that is what I interpreted proactive and awarenesss to allude to
Maxim Alzoba
48:42
@Cheryl, the price is usually the same , and bad guys started using english dictionaries, and suppressing all registrants with no reason (and no proof of bad intentions ) is a breach of a contract (civil one, where you have to deliver service after being paid)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
50:13
I don't recall support for the "stated intended goal" but do recall support for the accessible db. Maybe I missed that call....
Maxim Alzoba
51:29
The work is still in process, community does not have same understanding yet
Rubens Kuhl
51:32
To all gTLDs, not all TLDs.
Maxim Alzoba
51:41
of what is DNS abuse
Maxim Alzoba
53:38
Current run for DNS Abuse see spam is one of the issues, and it is a Use Abuse and can not be predicted
Rubens Kuhl
54:57
Unfortunately ICANN CTO didn't read this report, as he insists on pushing for spam measurement.
Maxim Alzoba
55:27
@Jeff, please read my comments about it
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
55:59
The "data" being pushed to registries is: you have 4 abused domains. Period.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
56:03
No other information.
Maxim Alzoba
57:29
And there is no way to ensure that this kind of information is true
Julie Hedlund
58:13
The document was appended to the agenda in an update yesterday
Julie Hedlund
58:33
The link was added in an update
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
58:57
It was there.
Rubens Kuhl
59:08
It was there
Maxim Alzoba
01:11:50
“The final Audit Report lacks information about ratio of the domains reported by DAAR to the amount of domains , which were found to be actual abuse cases”
Justine Chew
01:12:57
There is an At-Large Policy Session: DNS Abuse - End User Concerns at ICANN 66 on Monday, 4 Nov 13:30
Justine Chew
01:17:13
My apologies it's on Sunday, 3 Nov at 13:30
Gg Levine (NABP)
01:17:38
Don't we already have disparity between legacy gTLDs and new gtlds?
Maxim Alzoba
01:18:36
I do not hear
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:19:23
+1 Donna
Maxim Alzoba
01:19:26
+1
Justine Chew
01:19:38
+1
Anne Aikman-Scalese
01:20:15
QUESTION: SHOULD WE BE RECOMMENDING AN EXPEDITED PDP ON DNS ABUSE? Are we going to get held up if we don't? QUESTION
Maxim Alzoba
01:20:23
No
Justine Chew
01:20:57
+1 insofar as encouraging applicability to ALL gTLDs
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:21:29
@ Anne, no PDP on DNS Abuse.
Jim Prendergast
01:21:37
ok - thanks - thats a helpful clarification
Donna Austin, Neustar
01:22:34
That's not a decision for this group to make
Rubens Kuhl
01:22:45
Perhaps a CCWG...
Donna Austin, Neustar
01:23:32
Given that the Board has not accepted the recommendations from the CCT RT it seems premature for any discussions about a PDP or EPDP.
Anne Aikman-Scalese
01:23:42
If the Board will not move forward on a next round until this is addressed, we should likely figure out how to expedite. (There is some existing GAC ADvice on this which they would have to override to authorize a next round I think.)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:23:44
+1 Donna
Maxim Alzoba
01:24:08
involvement of ccNSO is a good thing , abuse is not limited to TLDs
Maxim Alzoba
01:24:16
so it is more like CCWG
Rubens Kuhl
01:24:20
If we can't move forward before addressing that, we could as well suspend new registrations in all gTLDs.
Jim Prendergast
01:26:28
right - so improve some of the wording. Makes sense
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:26:46
I have a conflict now and need to drop. My apologies.
Maxim Alzoba
01:26:51
it is worth reading the document :)
Maxim Alzoba
01:28:18
@Emily, is it possible to add URL to the chat?
Julie Hedlund
01:28:25
Registrar Support for New gTLDs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14HxLzQMXs90hAkpRStPAwHDC4CxaYXWqxZ-psTmxHdU/edit?usp=sharing page 8
Maxim Alzoba
01:28:29
thanks
Rubens Kuhl
01:31:56
Registrars wouldn't be required, only a registrar that wanted to sign the contract with ICANN would, in exchange for per-TLD onboard revenue.
Kurt Pritz
01:32:16
The requirement needn’t be that registrars carry EVERY TLD but would be required to carry all TLDs that don’t have special restrictions. E.g., if a TLD offered all domains with pricing in EPP in a standard way with no registration restrictions, then there could be some type of reciprocal level-playing field requirement.
Maxim Alzoba
01:33:21
to do that you need at least one registrar
Jim Prendergast
01:33:34
or get your own accrediation
Kurt Pritz
01:33:51
OR - every TLD could come with an automatic registrar accreditation
Maxim Alzoba
01:34:07
@Kurt, and automatic deposit?
Rubens Kuhl
01:34:09
The vertical integration idea also suffers from financial feasibility. The costs are high, the revenue is not.
Jim Prendergast
01:34:12
ICANN would like that - another $8k per year per registar to them
Jim Prendergast
01:35:24
exactly - if you cant find at least one registar to carry your TLD, you dont have a registar problem. you have a business model problem.
Alexander Schubert
01:36:08
Maxim. ok. I hear you.
Kurt Pritz
01:36:13
if GoDaddy and Tucows don’t carry your TLD, you are dead
Maxim Alzoba
01:36:26
I meant applicants were not aware that there will be a new requirement for RAA 2013
Katrin Ohlmer
01:36:53
@Kurt: Depends on the TLD - geoTLDs do not rely on both of them.
Jim Prendergast
01:37:10
so dont apply unless you havesome registar support.
Maxim Alzoba
01:37:28
@Jim, it did not work last time
Rubens Kuhl
01:37:36
If there are no registrars in your country, you are dead too.
Maxim Alzoba
01:37:44
ICANN issued new restrictions after the application period dinished
Maxim Alzoba
01:37:57
finished
Katrin Ohlmer
01:38:05
It is a no-brainer to think of your sales channel before applying and launching a TLD.
Maxim Alzoba
01:39:26
it might require banking license
Donna Austin, Neustar
01:39:43
@Jim, I don't think its about the business model. This program was supposed to provide for innovation and registrars essentially wanted cookie cutter registries to make their life easier. So if you have a TLD that was not the norm then you had challenges engaging registrars to carry your TLD. Certainly .shabaka was the poster child for this in the beginning of the program and could not find a registrar that could provide what was hoped to be an end to end registration of a domain name in Arabic.
Rubens Kuhl
01:41:06
The lack of opposition when those groups opposed other parts suggests this might move forward.
Donna Austin, Neustar
01:41:22
@Katrin, I don't think you can predict how receptive a registrar is going to be to a TLD.
Maxim Alzoba
01:43:08
it was there - business model
Katrin Ohlmer
01:45:55
@Donna: If you start talking to registrars about your TLD very early should help, but of course non-standard TLDs have a hard time.
Donna Austin, Neustar
01:46:48
I think that's the important point Katrin, if you are non-standard, you will have a hard time getting a registrar to support you.
Katrin Ohlmer
01:47:49
@Donna: Exactly, but this does not necessarily depend on the location of the Registrar, imho.
Kurt Pritz
01:48:12
But if you are standard, why should not every registrar support you?
Kurt Pritz
01:48:56
Now, TLDs must “support” every registrar through the level playing field requirement. Why is that not recoricol in some way
Alexander Schubert
01:48:59
At minimum ICANN should clearly warn applicants that delegating a gTLD doesn't guarantee registrations - and that they WILL need to build a sales channel.
Maxim Alzoba
01:49:07
I do not think having only standard TLDs is a target
Rubens Kuhl
01:50:44
Success for registrar: selling value-added services to domain registrants. (not selling domain registrations)
Jim Prendergast
01:51:23
so innovate on the Registrar side as well. There are some registars like EnCirca who specialize in non standard niche TLDs
Jim Prendergast
01:51:50
Exactly - is that ICANNs role
Kurt Pritz
01:52:27
Many new TLDs were stunned when they found out that marge registrars would not carry them, even when similarly situated TLDs were carried/
Kurt Pritz
01:52:41
Not “marge” — “many"
Maxim Alzoba
01:53:11
beware of wolfs
Rubens Kuhl
01:53:52
Regards planning, applicants thought every 2009 RAA registrar would be able to carry them, but in the end, 2013 RAA was required. Big surprise.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:54:23
Time Check
Maxim Alzoba
01:55:57
bye all, and thanks
Jim Prendergast
01:55:57
was a calendar item sent out for Monday call?
Maxim Alzoba
01:56:00
good night
Maxim Alzoba
01:56:17
have to drop
Steve Chan
01:56:20
@Jeff, there is no call scheduled for this upcoming Monday
Maxim Alzoba
01:56:37
safe travels
Jim Prendergast
01:56:40
thats what I thought.
Anne Aikman-Scalese
01:56:43
Safe travels all.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:56:46
Bye for now Thanks for productive conversation today people …
Katrin Ohlmer
01:56:54
Thank you, Jeff.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:56:58
Safe Travels
Justine Chew
01:57:02
Thanks
Rubens Kuhl
01:57:05
Subsequent Poutine.