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Nathalie Peregrine's Personal Meeting Room - Shared screen with speaker view
Maxim Alzoba
04:00
hello all , sorry for being late
David McAuley
05:33
wonder if anyone else is hearing periodic static?
Mitch Stoltz
05:44
I am.
Maxim Alzoba
05:46
me, I thought it was on my side
julie.hedlund
05:52
That may be me David. I’ll dial back in shortly.
David McAuley
06:08
thanks - not bad but can block an important word or two
Julie Bisland
06:12
Yes, the static comes from Julie H’s line
julie.hedlund
06:45
Dropping. Will rejoin
Kathy Kleiman
12:51
Subpro does not any recommendations yet.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
15:03
With all due respect to Claudio's proposal, I don't think there is anything that would make that proposal acceptable, though I did try to follow the thread. I think its enough of a grey area that we need to let curative rights (UDRP and URS) with their substantive legal review handle those.
julie.hedlund
15:12
@Claudio: This was an issue that was referred to the RPMs PDP WG by SubPro for consideration, as Kathy notes it’s not a SubPro recommendation.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
15:54
It's not that it's not a problem, it's just that it's not the right problem for a "preventative" mechanism. This is right for a curative mechanism.
Claudio DiGangi
16:16
OK Julie, understood
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
16:45
To be clear, I'm also not in favor of suppressing a RO's right to have this provison in their own terms.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
16:52
(voluntarily)
Claudio DiGangi
17:00
@Julie, I thought they put a proposal forward for our consideration, so was looking at that as form of a recommendation even though it may not technically be
David McAuley
19:27
Claudio, here is some language Jeff Neuman used in sending the issue to the RPM co-chairs (see Phil's mail of Feb 10 this year): 'Although we are still in the process of reviewing all of the comments we received, we did receive one comment on the Sunrise Dispute Resolution Process from Google that we wanted to draw to your attention since we believe that it relates more to the work your PDP is doing as opposed to ours. Therefore, we are turning this over to you to decide how to incorporate.'
Maxim Alzoba
19:52
canadian.bank needs a banking license for using it … btw bloodbank , most probably does not have a license for banking :)
Mitch Stoltz
23:26
I agree with Phil’s process point as long as there is in fact an opportunity for reconsideration after the public comment period. I would want confirmation of that now.
Philip Corwin
24:17
Yes, "wide support" rather than "strong"; I stand corrected
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
24:32
I found the airing of all possible proposals in the WT5 report to be exhausting and I hoped we wouldn't do that here, but I might be alone in that.
Kathy Kleiman
26:42
there is a queue
David McAuley
26:54
I agree with Greg and Phil re wide support standard
Kathy Kleiman
27:07
I'll be happy to follow Michael K
Philip Corwin
27:11
Do not believe we should burden the community by inviting/seeking comments on proposals that failed to garner wide support. That does not foreclose anyone in the community from commenting, as all proposals considered by the WG & sub teams will be noted in the Initial Report.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
27:50
@Susan, I agree, but the point for me is balance. Sunrise strikes the right balance now.
Kathy Kleiman
27:59
did we lose Susan?
David McAuley
27:59
did we lose Susan
Maxim Alzoba
28:06
I think so
Mitch Stoltz
28:46
Susan, you are correct - UDRP is a better, fairer mechanism than Sunrise overall. But aside from that, it’s a question of scale. There are far fewer “dot-span” issues than there are sunrise registrations generally.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
29:02
@Susan, sunrise is a good thing, but I think expanding it upsets the balance (see my comment above).
John McElwaine
29:18
Did we ask trademark owners about this problem?
Maxim Alzoba
29:21
UDRP costs
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
29:22
@Kathy: we have data....there are literally half a dozen or more IP people on tihs call. they are telling you what they see every day.
Maxim Alzoba
29:40
a lot (comparing to litigation in some countries), and comparing to URS
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
29:54
I think we're all participating on the assumption that we didn't need to fill out the survey because our views would be heard on the calls.
Mitch Stoltz
30:24
Kristine, the plural of anecdote is not data.
Kathy Kleiman
30:46
Also -- I forgot to mention that there seem to be fingerprints of Claudio's proposal in the SDRP question!
Maxim Alzoba
30:51
could we check if bloodbank is a good idea for registering .bank domain?
Kathy Kleiman
30:58
Thats good news -- because it may allow an appropriate challenge.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
31:01
@Mitch, the survey isn't data, it's a collection of anecdotes. If we're going there, then lets go all the way there.
John McElwaine
31:02
There are UDRP proceedings involving spanning the dot
Mitch Stoltz
31:59
@Kristine, I’d like to, but maybe we’re too far down that road. It does counsel for a cautious approach now, though.
Michael Karanicolas
32:08
These aren’t even anecdotes. It’s opinions.
David McAuley
32:27
neo-logism - anecdata
Kathy Kleiman
33:27
:-)
Griffin Barnett
33:35
anecdata... that's good
Mitch Stoltz
33:38
@Greg this isn’t a value judgment. Anecdote is not a pejorative. We’re either using data or we’re not.
Greg Shatan
34:41
@Mitch, here and elsewhere, we are using a variety of inputs.
Kathy Kleiman
35:31
@Subteam Co-chairs, procedurally, how much time do we spend on one proposal?
Kathy Kleiman
35:50
this is not a recommendation of the subteam
David McAuley
36:08
WEe want to allow full discussion with some focus given the nearing end of our work
David McAuley
36:28
That is my approach - let all speak but let's all be brief, concise, to the point
John McElwaine
36:59
The WIPO Overview Section 1.11.1-1.11.3 has a discussion of the TLD portion of a domain name in UDRP analysis. It has citations to the cases of "spanning the dot." https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/overview3.0/#item111
David McAuley
37:12
Thanks John
David McAuley
37:45
Thank you Claudio
Michael Karanicolas
38:52
If people’s “day to day experience” now counts as evidence, that standard should have been established from the get go.
Michael Karanicolas
39:21
Especially after those who submitted proposals were constantly challenged on evidence supporting their proposal.
mary.wong
39:24
@Claudio, just a reminder that for something to be submitted to the full WG as a rec from the Sub Team, it requires “wide support” from the Sub Team (not necessarily consensus as defined in the GNSO WG Guidelines). For something - once at the WG level - to become a policy recommendation, it should attain consensus.
Claudio DiGangi
39:59
thanks, Mary. that's what I thought
David McAuley
40:53
Timecheck - just about 40 substantive minutes left before wrap-up admin
julie.hedlund
40:53
Hand up
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
40:53
@Michael K it does count. We discussed it in detail before the survey. We weren't looking to capture OUR views in the survey, we were trying to get anecdotes and thoughts from 3Ps
Claudio DiGangi
41:03
to obtain hard data we would need to conduct a study on UDRP/URS results and/or cybersquatting, it would not be an easy undertaking
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
41:09
We're here because we're the experts. We live this every single day.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
41:28
If you were to survey the top expert in domains, you'd get us.
Claudio DiGangi
41:40
great question Phil
Maxim Alzoba
41:51
+1 @Kristine
Kathy Kleiman
42:21
That question would then apply to other individuals proposals as well -- they could all be revisited at the wG level.
Claudio DiGangi
42:39
John thanks for providing that link
David McAuley
43:02
yes
Mitch Stoltz
43:06
I hear you, Julie
Claudio DiGangi
44:52
if the sub team process document says the plenary can override, then there needs to be a way to present the issue for consideration by the plenary
Philip Corwin
45:27
Thanks for that Julie
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
45:30
but then every proposal would just be so presented and would waste our time???
Claudio DiGangi
46:05
Kristine, I don't think so. There would need to be support for doing so, so not every proposal would meet that standard
Maxim Alzoba
46:10
2020 seems to be optimistic now
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
47:04
+1 Maxim
mary.wong
47:05
That is correct, Greg. Any exception should be based on substantive evidence that the ST got it wrong (e.g. new evidence they missed). And thanks to Phil for the question, as it allowed staff the opportunity to clarify.
David McAuley
47:15
I agree w Greg about Q1
Maxim Alzoba
48:36
registry and registrar agreements
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
48:44
+1 Maxim
Ariel Liang
48:52
We captured it
Maxim Alzoba
48:59
it should be RA and RAA 2013
Ariel Liang
49:04
Thanks Kristine - we will reference the RA and RAA
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
49:18
Yes, we'll find it..Board presentation on the picket fence.
Maxim Alzoba
49:44
due to picket fence
David McAuley
50:01
Thanks Maxim - I recall you have been consistent with that view as I think
David McAuley
50:11
think you have
Maxim Alzoba
50:18
new hand
Kathy Kleiman
51:02
Suggestion: Registry pricing issues may be within the scope of the Subsequent Procedures PDP Working Group.
Claudio DiGangi
51:25
I disagree with Greg's response on my 'middle ground' public comment question, but my head is spinning by now
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
51:33
@Susan, do we get to that in Q2(a)?
Maxim Alzoba
51:40
there is no way to make a violation of what is not prohibited
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
51:52
I think its not a reaction to Q2 though, right?
Kathy Kleiman
52:11
@Susan - would the answer in Q2(a) address your concerns?
Susan Payne
52:35
maybe - then maybe we have to refer in Q2 preamble to Q2a answer? I just feel that the Q2 preamble answer is a bit incomplete
Kathy Kleiman
53:02
Can we have a problem (Q2(b)) and not be able to address it in Q2(a)?
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
54:24
Ariel: Here is a link to the Board deck on the picket fence. https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/picket-fence-overview-23jan19-en.pdf
Kathy Kleiman
54:30
Weren't we suggesting guidance, best practices, etc?
Ariel Liang
54:30
Thank you Kristine
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
54:58
The contracts define what policies CAN regulate.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
55:07
Pricing is not in that list.
David McAuley
55:13
Thanks for that link, Kristine
mary.wong
56:32
@Phil, SubPro can only make recommendations within the scope of its Charter, so the answer will depend on what their Charter says.
Maxim Alzoba
56:47
Just a note , before going further, the work of a PDP goes through the GNSO Council , and PDP does not have the authority to do something directly
Kathy Kleiman
57:06
I agree with Susan that we should air the grievance.
Susan Payne
57:11
we were never trying to set prices
Kathy Kleiman
57:37
I'm not sure Q2 umbrella is the spot -- Q2(a)? +1 Greg
Maxim Alzoba
58:57
Legacy contracts are totally different from the new gTLD ones
Maxim Alzoba
59:06
so it is not an example
Maxim Alzoba
59:51
who sets the level? is it going to be a new market regulator?
Maxim Alzoba
01:01:36
pricing is not the obligation in the RA, for clarity
Maxim Alzoba
01:01:52
I mean the particular level of pricing
julie.hedlund
01:02:42
@All: It would be helpful if you could suggest alternate language/brief sentence for the answer to Q2.
Susan Payne
01:02:46
and again, to be clear, I have no desire to stifle innovation or to place a set cost limit
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:03:55
@Susan, I know. I was addressing the group more broadly.
Maxim Alzoba
01:04:23
but if a party offers a chopper (motorcycle) with every domain?
Susan Payne
01:04:37
@Julie - maybe to add to first para 0- "however some express concerns about the interplay of p[ricing with RPMs obligations, discussed further below"
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:04:40
@Greg, I get it but that doesn't even solve all the problems.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:05:07
notably, RO businesses evolve and pricing changes over time.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:05:20
again, you can't innovate if your hands are tied a priori
Philip Corwin
01:05:37
Noting that registries which price sunrise registrations at excessive levels will reap little revenue...so self-interest should generate some restraint.
Maxim Alzoba
01:06:11
old, sorry
Maxim Alzoba
01:06:43
+1@Kristine, it was not agreed upon in the group
Kathy Kleiman
01:07:15
I had the same question
Maxim Alzoba
01:07:30
is it a suggestion that TM owners have a right to have free domains?
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:08:03
Not from me, Maxim....
Maxim Alzoba
01:08:19
it is not factually based generalization and should be modified
David McAuley
01:08:59
I would not have an issue with deleting the 'subjectivity' phrasing
mary.wong
01:09:05
Hand up
David McAuley
01:09:26
and I compliment Susan for trying to suggest spoecific language as she did in chat above -
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:10:00
PROPOSAL" Registry Sunrise or Premium Name pricing practices, have limited the ability of some TM wonders to participate during Sunrise. However, the subteam could not agree to the extent to which Premium Name practices "unfairly" limite the ability of some TM owners to participate in SUnrise.
mary.wong
01:10:05
Staff hand
David McAuley
01:10:07
Greg - cannot hear you
Maxim Alzoba
01:10:12
I lost audio
Maxim Alzoba
01:10:17
from Claudio
Maxim Alzoba
01:10:50
now I hear voices in my headset :)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:10:51
Ignore the ghastly typos.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:11:08
@Maxim...you might want to keep that to yourself. :)
David McAuley
01:11:25
Kristine - i like TM wonders
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:11:39
Me too.
Susan Payne
01:12:15
I don't totally love Kristine'slanguage but can live with it. It does better reflect
Maxim Alzoba
01:12:29
may have limited
Susan Payne
01:12:52
in sunrise too
Maxim Alzoba
01:12:57
I think it depends on the particular TLD
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:13:12
@Susan, I might not love it either, but maybe for different reasons.
Susan Payne
01:13:42
:)
David McAuley
01:14:31
Thanks Kristine - that is what I thougt you meant
Claudio DiGangi
01:14:31
it some cases specific trademark owners were targeted by premium prices to extract value from the implicit value of the brand
David McAuley
01:14:43
use 'wheter' instead of 'extent to which'
Claudio DiGangi
01:14:45
that should be captured somehow in this answer
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:15:03
Now I know what I was going to say wiht my raised hand.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:15:20
Premium names are just names a TLD thinks are more valuable for whatever reason.
Claudio DiGangi
01:15:53
@kristine, facebook (Susan K) provided comments at a prior public meeting about this issue.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:15:59
In most cases, for instance you might expect valuable, short dictionary words on that list.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:17:47
For sure we know some ROs did this...@Susan.
Maxim Alzoba
01:17:54
but even the price of 50 USD during the sunrise v.s. 5 USD in the General Availability (but after the landrush) might be seen as ‘significantly higher’
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:18:02
Trying to +1 Susan to say it did happen.
Maxim Alzoba
01:18:09
new
Susan Payne
01:19:37
@Maxim, take your point but we have examples of $10k + for a non-dictionary word.
Claudio DiGangi
01:19:41
exponentially higher
Maxim Alzoba
01:20:54
@Claudio, exponent starts quite low, so close numbers would fall into that definitions
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:21:46
+1 susan.
Claudio DiGangi
01:22:54
looks good
Maxim Alzoba
01:23:13
it should be done via the e-mail , reading is way better
Susan Payne
01:23:19
speak for yourself Greg, it's 8.25 here and even later for Maxim
Maxim Alzoba
01:23:28
it is 22.26
David McAuley
01:23:33
we have a lot to do next week and on list
julie.hedlund
01:23:58
no AOB Greg
Susan Payne
01:24:04
lol
David McAuley
01:24:29
my cup is a tea cup
Claudio DiGangi
01:25:07
tea and cookies sounds good
Kathy Kleiman
01:25:24
Also, do the threads stay open?
Kathy Kleiman
01:26:21
tx -- Preamble and 5(b) are new...
David McAuley
01:26:22
sounds good Ariel
Kathy Kleiman
01:26:26
tx Greg!