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Julie Bisland's Personal Meeting Room - Shared screen with speaker view
Andrea Glandon
34:41
Thank you, Kristina!
Andrea Glandon
34:46
Yes, it looks good
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
38:57
Hello all
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
39:59
Good question Amp
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
40:03
* Amr
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
40:20
That’s fine, as long as we address it.
Terri Agnew
41:23
Reminder to complete alternate form if you are not attending the F2F in person by Friday, 12 July 2019
Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
41:55
When will we get travel invitations?
Terri Agnew
42:16
Earliest will be next week, possibly the week after.
Marika Konings
49:44
Alan, can you confirm when what that was submitted?
Marika Konings
49:57
I don’t recall having seen it, but apologies if I missed it.
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry - RySG)
51:06
another suggestion: Each group is responsible for reviewing early input on its own, enters into staff-created google doc any questions, and then we allocate one hour of one meeting to go through the questions with each group being responsible for answering questions posed to it. Flag early input for review as topics are addressed.
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
51:12
Late early input
Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
51:40
Sent 21 June to GNSO-Secs. Subject: EPDP Phase 2 Initial SO/AC/SG/C Consultation
Sarah Wyld (RrSG)
51:48
I like Kristina's idea
Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry - RySG)
51:49
+1 Marc. That works.
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
52:06
+1 Marc…seems like a good path forward
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
52:16
I like Marc's idea.
Margie Milam (BC)
52:29
that sounds like a good idea to include in the worksheets - that ensures we look at it in the context of the issues we are examining
Brian King (IPC)
52:37
+1
Marika Konings
52:49
@Alan - we will check our archives and update the page and review tool accordingly.
Alan Woods (RYSG)
53:00
either path works for me. Personal view is that small groups should be avoided.
Marika Konings
53:48
Note that for SSAD it may not be that easy as the worksheet is not organized in line with the charter questions but more detailed topics.
Marika Konings
57:46
@Alan - we have located the ALAC input. This was probably overlooked in the pre-ICANN65 rush. Our apologies!
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
58:55
I think Kristina’s proposal and mine are kind of compatible.
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
59:44
If staff populates a google doc with all the responses, we could proceed to review them as Kristina suggests.
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:01:22
probably?
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:02:31
I think there might be 21…
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
01:02:44
Lucky number
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:03:07
I think so, Ayden. Need to count them again. :-)
Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
01:03:25
Note that one of the ALAC cases is flagged as not being subject to automation.
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:05:22
Just a minor point of order, but i note that the NCSG has five people particpating in this meeting. All showing as primary members. Is this a mistake?
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:05:30
We spent nearly 10 hours on Rickert's TM use case. What kind of a discussion do you think will happen in 30 minutes?
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:05:53
@Ashley: Yeah, we are missing on
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:05:56
one
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:06:16
My bad... I forgot you guys were super special and got 6 reps.
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:06:25
:-)
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:06:30
We are super special, and we do have 6 reps. ;-)
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:06:36
CSG is as special .
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:07:08
tree age?
Marika Konings
01:07:09
The second category has 9 use cases so 20 in total.
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:07:24
Thanks, Marika.
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:07:26
Yes, the CSG also has six representatives… we simply have an equal number.
Volker Greimann (RrSG)
01:09:47
that is the major issue with the ALAC use cases. No actual issue, just checking whether there may be an issue. These cases would likely fail the balancing test, as all fishing expeditions should
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:10:00
+1 Volker
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:10:33
thanks for the welcome Milton! Didn’t know you are hosting
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:10:40
@Volker: +1
Volker Greimann (RrSG)
01:11:54
"Hey, I am curious!" is not a legitimate interest in my book."Hey, I want to find out who a specific criminal whose crime is already evidenced is" is a legitimate interest.
Volker Greimann (RrSG)
01:12:19
or likely to be so.
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
01:16:26
+1 Marc on the potential to easily expand the number of use cases and the “means to an end” comment
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:16:44
Same here. +1 @Marc.
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:17:05
Let’s not forget what happened with the RDS PDP use cases.
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:17:49
Use cases have to be very specific. These are not specific at all
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:22:19
Do the use cases have to be "specific" or is it the request that has to be very specific. I think it is a bit of a subjective question and depends. Specific in what sense? If each use case has to be immensely specific (my own new term), then we'll have a million of them.
Alan Woods (RySG)
01:23:39
agreed .. at some point our exercise to highlight the process, and the steps and just to understand where a multitude of requests begin to follow similiar steps and requre specific review, has turned into a shopping list.
Alan Woods (RySG)
01:23:52
*require
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:24:09
I think you are talking about Requests Farzeneh.
Julf Helsingius (NCSG)
01:24:34
Each case should include justification of why they are considered part of ICANNs mission
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:24:54
@Julf: +1000
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:25:48
"shopping list" - good point, Alan
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:27:01
No Ashley. I am talking about use cases.
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
01:27:38
@Janis: Since Microsoft was mentioned, may I briefly intervene?
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:27:40
Well, then we'll need alot more use cases then.
Brian King (IPC)
01:28:46
I'm happy to lower my hand if we can move on
Marika Konings
01:29:15
You can find all the use cases here: https://community.icann.org/x/-KCjBg - if you have a better suggestion for the categorization / labelling, please do let us know.
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:31:36
I totally welcome that Mark .
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
01:31:52
thx
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:33:13
Yes Thomas!!! It should be sufficiently detailed. they are not at the moment
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:34:33
yes safeguards are a part and parcel of balancing test for access on the grounds of legitimate interest
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
01:36:23
Janis just hit the nail on the head. These use cases aren't intended to be operational documents. They are illustrative and intended to inform us as we develop policy recommendations.
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:38:03
They have to be detailed enough to be informative.
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:39:38
Surveymonkey is not an easy tool for most community members to use, Word documents much simpler for collaborative drafting purposes
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
01:40:00
True the use cases are not the target those are to help us in developing the policy
Marika Konings
01:40:22
Surveymonkey would just be to rank use cases in priority order to determine where to start - not intended for any kind of collaborative drafting.
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:41:08
But in order for 1 person to complete it on behalf of a group, that person needs to share the answers ahead of time with others and to achieve an internal consensus on the response to be submitted
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:41:22
This is much easier with a Word doc then it is with a Surveymonkey poll
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:41:53
@Janis what does it mean to say that "no category shall be left behind?"
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:43:03
Some of the categories may not, after discusion and inspection, make sense
Janis Karklins (Chair)
01:43:37
It means that no issue/concerns should be ignored
Janis Karklins (Chair)
01:43:48
Negative result also is a result
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:43:54
OK
Marika Konings
01:45:01
@Ayden - we can make the survey monkey questions available in a different format (word or pdf) so each group can decide how they want to collaborate on getting to a response?
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
01:47:38
Thanks. A Word document would be preferable, especially if there are any text/free response fields.
Margie Milam (BC)
01:48:03
I have to go offline & drive
Margie Milam (BC)
01:48:09
i'll remain on the call
Marika Konings
01:50:37
I noticed that there is also an action item here for Marc A and Brian to work on suggested alternative language.
Marika Konings
01:53:07
Thomas was the original author
Thomas Rickert (ISPCP)
01:53:15
yes
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:53:34
Paternity? Uh oh!! :-)
Georgios Tselentis (GAC)
01:53:48
Ok then I suggest to discuss with Thomas to do the proper representation
Thomas Rickert (ISPCP)
01:53:56
Ok, Georgios.
Thomas Rickert (ISPCP)
01:54:09
But I will not love that child more than required by evolution.
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
01:54:12
der stolze Papa
Thomas Rickert (ISPCP)
01:54:27
:-) @Mark
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:54:32
:D Thomas
Chris Lewis-Evans (GAC)
01:54:32
Not a beer belly after all!
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:54:41
he's pregnant
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
01:54:42
lol Chris
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:56:02
you can’t just argue that IP rights override fundamental rights. You need to carry out a balancing test …
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
01:56:28
case law where?
León Sanchez (ICANN Board Liaison)
01:57:03
I guess that is true for each case Farzi
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:57:05
Which court case? The only one I saw cited was about property rights.
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
01:57:11
Thanks for pointing out the references, Brian. Will look in to it.
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:57:11
Yes Leon
Julf Helsingius (NCSG)
01:58:20
Audio badly distorted for me
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:58:46
MS microphone :)
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
01:59:41
If you argue that IP overrides fundamental rights of domain name registrant you need to back up that argument.
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
02:00:28
I like Mark’s point about the ultimate decision still residing with the data controller…that’s an important point to make sure we capture
Alan Woods (RySG)
02:00:55
Agreed Matt
Sarah Wyld (RrSG)
02:01:23
+1 Matt
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:09:07
i am unmuted
Terri Agnew
02:09:25
Do you want us to dial out via telephone?
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
02:10:12
Yep... there needs to be a code of conduct.
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
02:10:47
To Alan’s point, I don’t think we have got that far down the road to even have those discussions
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:11:18
I do want to make sure I actually get to talk about the overarching purpose
Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
02:11:58
@Matt, I agree, but I am having trouble understanding what the end-point of the current discussions are.
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:12:05
Milton you should mute yourself
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:13:01
Automated system? And then you are telling me I am talking about disclosure procedure and request other than use cases?
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:13:33
not sure how I got unmuted, was muted afaik
Julf Helsingius (NCSG)
02:14:22
@Milton: are you on an apple machine? :)
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:14:23
i am speaking
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:14:35
no, windows
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:14:47
i try to logout and log in again
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:14:51
You see Windows is controlling you and your life and your zoom
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:14:55
ok sorry
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:17:40
Agree with Milton. and that’s what I meant by being specific
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:18:05
I could send a doc with particular deletions proposed
Georgios Tselentis (GAC)
02:18:45
I discussed with Chris and we can try to come up with the two possible scenarios Janis proposed
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:20:01
By the way Use Case is specific case not general case. At least in geek’s term…
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:20:15
Understood, Chris, wanted to collapse the overarching purpose into that one line (Criminal law enforcemtn) and just have the use case
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:20:22
So I guess my critique still stands
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:20:50
sorry for that
Chris Lewis-Evans (GAC)
02:21:34
Ok thanks Milton if we can see the text then we can react next time
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
02:26:02
Great suggestion, Marc!!
Milton Mueller (NCSG)
02:26:49
I support what you're suggesting
Chris Lewis-Evans (GAC)
02:26:59
+1
Alan Woods (RySG)
02:28:17
To be clear the EDPB woul never answer that question
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
02:30:01
@Alan W: I suspect you’re right, especially that the question would be asked in such an abstract context, with no clarity (at this time) on what safeguards are in place to ensure that requestors will not misuse the data disclosed to them.
Alan Greenberg (ALAC)
02:31:01
Can ICANN assume responsibility for protecting privacy of registrants thourgh the use of an automated system.
Alan Woods (RySG)
02:31:47
nope they wont answer that either.
Marc Anderson (RySG)
02:32:53
well said, thank you Georgios
Georgios Tselentis (GAC)
02:33:04
ok will do
Mark Svancarek (BC) (MSFT)
02:33:05
thx Georgios
Ashley Heineman (GAC)
02:33:20
How about a non-question. IE: ICANN is going to assume legal liability for disclosing information based on (blah, blah, blah). I recognize timing of posing this question is subject to agreement, but a statement may be better than a question and have them respond to that.
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
02:33:49
Agreed that statements would probably be a better idea as opposed to questions
Amr Elsadr (NCSG)
02:34:07
Need to leave now. Thanks all. Bye.
Brian King (IPC)
02:34:11
+1 DPB is looking for a proposal
Brian King (IPC)
02:34:20
(statement)
Matt Serlin (RrSG)
02:35:26
thanks all
Farzaneh Badii (NCSG)
02:35:28
Well I hope the CEO and org put it in their agenda to do data protection impact assessment as well. diminishing liability and giving access is not in the interest of privacy
Brian King (IPC)
02:35:34
I would clarify that IPC, Thomas, and Georgios will work on the TM use case
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:35:48
Thank you all - sorry for not being able to speak
León Sanchez (ICANN Board Liaison)
02:35:54
I have to leave now. Thanks everyone
caitlin.tubergen
02:35:58
Thanks, Brian - noted, and will update the action accordingly.
Ayden Férdeline (NCSG)
02:36:01
Thanks all
Hadia Elminiawi (ALAC)
02:36:01
Bye
Brian King (IPC)
02:36:06
Thanks, Caitlin!
Georgios Tselentis (GAC)
02:36:07
bye thanks