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Nathalie Peregrine's Personal Meeting Room - Shared screen with speaker view
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
26:19
Re Q8: Maxim and I literally just circulated some language. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y-ld2R-JNL1Ra9KPKpTjLGjaZvjrIFDscsuMMic_OO4/edit?usp=sharing
Maxim Alzoba
28:43
at the end it was more about looking at those questions Q8 and Q12 as at related ones
David McAuley
33:09
agree Maxim
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
33:15
@Kathy, please explain "gaming."
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
33:26
I don't understand what gaming this proposal addresses.
Kathy Kleiman
34:27
t
Kathy Kleiman
34:30
Tx David!
Greg Shatan
34:49
I guess Proposal 3 is face-down on the floor, for the moment...
Claudio DiGangi
37:03
I agree with Kristine that the restriction on transferring the domain should be left to the registry operator. This rule applied across the board would completely change the market and the way domains are purchased , managed, and sold.
Maxim Alzoba
38:15
most probably Sunrise would be copied (if removed from AGB) into some LRP someway by most Registries
Maxim Alzoba
38:47
.mobi was pre 2012 (for clarity)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
39:52
@maxim, I think .biz was too (I think 2001?)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
40:23
@Mitch speed limits on the highway generally work, even if some people sometimes speed.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
40:42
We shouldn't say something doesn't work because a few people are jerks.
Maxim Alzoba
41:47
it served to the purpose to some extent
Greg Shatan
42:05
I think what Mitch is discussing relates to "unintended effect" but doesn't really touch on the issue of intended purpose.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
42:22
Maybe we need to have a discussion about consensus.
Greg Shatan
43:25
[NB: My comment above was made in my personal capacity and not as Co-Chair.]
Mitch Stoltz
44:37
@kristine it depends on the weight we assign to those abuses. I don’t see consensus on that either.
Kathy Kleiman
45:15
merging (a) and (b) so that we don't have to say an outright "yes" or "no" but be qualified on our response at the outset.
Kathy Kleiman
46:09
d, e. f -- all yes!
Maxim Alzoba
46:47
intended effect was the protection of TM owners
Maxim Alzoba
47:10
and what to do if the domain resold with the company
Mitch Stoltz
47:33
I thought the intended effect was to balance trademark rights with the free expression rights of others.
Kathy Kleiman
47:39
Sunrise Period has served its intended purpose to some extent... SP has sserved its intended purpose to some degree... both quotes from our summary data.
Kathy Kleiman
47:43
Always qualified :-)
Kathy Kleiman
49:29
and merge (a) and (b) :-)
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
49:39
+1 Maxim. the intended effect was to allow TM owners to avoid UDRPs by giving them a first option.
Maxim Alzoba
49:58
or to lower the barrier (cost) in URS
Maxim Alzoba
50:01
and to
Mitch Stoltz
51:38
Michael has made the point I was in the queue for.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
51:59
the RPMs as a suite/tapestry had a balanced purpose (this is why there is an exact match requirement etc). Not everyone got what they wanted.
David McAuley
52:21
just saw your note Mitch - thanks
Mitch Stoltz
52:23
Back in the queue for a brief comment.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
52:24
any changes to Sunrise will need to be offset to keep the balance.
David McAuley
52:36
welcome back
Michael Karanicolas
53:02
Greg - you’re describing the functionality of it, not the underlying purpose.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
54:36
“The Board has clearly heard and believesstrongly that the concerns of trademarkholders must be addressed before thisprocess is opened for applications. Theestablishment of this team is an attempt toget proposed solutions from the people withskill in trademark protection and otherissues.”– Peter Dengate-Thrush, ICANN Chair, March 2009
Greg Shatan
56:42
I think its more likely that the drafters of those Proposals may not support the intended purpose.
Kathy Kleiman
57:45
Can proposers present their own proposals?
Maxim Alzoba
57:57
good idea
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
58:21
I think the ICANN community generally believes cybersquatting is not a positive thing.
David McAuley
58:27
I'll present Georges unless someone else would like to - then Mitch can present his, yes
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
58:31
so preventing it, is a community concern.
Kathy Kleiman
58:49
But very few trademark owners used Sunrise...
Maxim Alzoba
58:57
someone is running
Kathy Kleiman
58:57
we'll remember the use was quite low...
Ariel Liang
58:59
Please mute your mic
Ariel Liang
59:04
When not speaking, thank you
David McAuley
01:00:27
Mitch - I would be happy to summarize proposal #8 but your call- you certainly can
Mitch Stoltz
01:00:52
Do we have evidence of harm to consumers flowing specifically from trademark holders’ inability to obtain priority registration (as opposed to TM infringement or cybersquatting in general)?
Maxim Alzoba
01:01:05
for clarity - RPMs is not a multistakeholdermodel based policy (it was result of the strawman Solution)
Michael Karanicolas
01:01:33
If our goal here *actually* revolves around consumer trust, we would need to radically recalibrate how the system works.
Mitch Stoltz
01:01:55
@David, please go ahead and summarize #8, thank you
Michael Karanicolas
01:02:07
Again - what’s the potentially for consumer confusion in mini.tattoo? Are they going to go there and buy a knockoff car?
Maxim Alzoba
01:02:47
different consumers demand different things
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:02:52
Whereas, in an effort to respond to public comment that trademark protection needed further consideration in relation to the New gTLD Program, the Board called for the creation of a community-lead Implementation Recommendation Team (IRT) to develop rights protection mechanisms;....Whereas, the Board believes that the current proposals reflect the very thoughtful public comments received and the tireless good work conducted by both the IRT and the GNSO-STI; andWhereas, subject to any amendments in response to public comment, the Board supports the substantive content of the Clearinghouse and URS proposals that were posted on 15 February 2010 for public comment and expects that they will be included in version 4 of the Draft Applicant Guidebook.Resolved (2010.03.12.19), ICANN staff shall analyze public comments on the Clearinghouse proposal and develop a final version to be included in version 4 of the Draft Applicant Guidebook. [BOARD RESOLUTION]
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:04:20
Is anyone "REALLY" harmed by not being able to register mini.tattoo? I'm sure mini will be available in another TLD. Or miniature.tattoo is available.
Kathy Kleiman
01:04:31
Mitch's proposal #8 adds: The impact on rightsholders would be minimal, as Sunrise registrations are not widely used.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:05:07
If sunrise registrations are not widely used, then there is no widespread harm.
Michael Karanicolas
01:05:31
This consumer protection argument has always been a fig leaf to shield the actual focus of these protections, which are about protecting brands.
Michael Karanicolas
01:05:54
Which is fine - there’s no shame in that, and it’s a legitimate interest… but be honest about it.
Kathy Kleiman
01:07:02
Huh? IRT and STI.... one for the IPC, one appointed by the GNSO Council. STI more like an EPDP (although we did not have that term then).
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:07:08
@Michael, I'm not following. We've repeatedly said Sunrise protects brands. It also protect consumers because the purpose of TM law is ultimately consumer protection.
Kathy Kleiman
01:07:19
Can we stick to data actually gathered?
Maxim Alzoba
01:07:30
the reason might be that sunrises for old TLDs was long gone
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:08:08
@Kathy, I was addressing Mitch's point that we don't know the purpose. I pulled out statements from the Board about the purpose.
Michael Karanicolas
01:09:53
Sure - @Kristine - that’s a fair point. I understand the core consumer protection component of TM law (as ONE of its purposes…). I just think it’s disingenuous to pretend that the main focus here is directly on consumers, especially when you look at how things have played out.
Kathy Kleiman
01:09:55
@Kristine, I was responding to Claudio when he was speaking... let me go back and check your point...
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:10:03
@Kathy, ok, sorry.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:10:29
@Michael. I don't think anyone has said that. We're just connecting the dots...
Maxim Alzoba
01:10:55
I do not think we should distinguish TM owners after they passed to TMCH
Mitch Stoltz
01:15:53
@kristine at scale, noncommercial registrants are severely prejudiced by the removal of many common words from registration.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:16:07
@ I strenuously disagree
Mitch Stoltz
01:16:15
That prejudice may or may not be economic, but there are other values at stake.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:16:43
I understand they are inconvienced, but not harmed.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:16:50
and not "severely prejudiced."
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:17:12
I went to register some personal domains and I didn't get some words I wanted. Live went on and found other options.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:17:18
"life"
Maxim Alzoba
01:17:23
@Mitch, as I understand the idea of this PDP was to ensure RPMs work , not to remove those
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:17:30
+1Mitch
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:17:38
+1 Maxim, I mean
Maxim Alzoba
01:17:43
:)
Mitch Stoltz
01:19:12
@kristine, I could say equally that the registration of mini.tattoo and similar examples by noncommercial users in general availability does not, at scale, severely prejudice BMW, because trademark law does not give BMW priority over referring to websites by the common English word ‘mini’.
Michael Karanicolas
01:19:14
Kathy raises a good point
Michael Karanicolas
01:19:19
Trademark law is ALSO a balance
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:19:25
@Kathy, I don't disagree, but you just said it. It's a balance. A few jerks abused things.
Michael Karanicolas
01:19:30
And the current sunrise system doesn’t track that balance.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:19:34
We cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Maxim Alzoba
01:19:47
also I am not sure that philosophy is about implementation, it is limited to asking questions only ,by definition
Kathy Kleiman
01:22:17
But the rules were adopted 3 years before gTLD applications came in; rules for Sunrise adopted before implemenation and use.
Kathy Kleiman
01:22:54
Agree - they don't want to register their names during sunrise.
Kathy Kleiman
01:23:02
We agree Claudio on this observation.
Maxim Alzoba
01:23:07
worst thing - TMCH changes came after the payments were accepted (from the applicants), was bit similar to the forbidden practice of bait and switch
Kathy Kleiman
01:23:44
what changes, Maxim?
Maxim Alzoba
01:23:55
strawman solution
Kathy Kleiman
01:24:06
Which was TM+50, righr?
Mitch Stoltz
01:25:29
The assertion that the policies TM holders want are necessarily good for consumers is a sweepingly broad claim that would require extraordinary evidence. It also ignores the interests of noncommercial registrants and their users/visitors beyond their interests *as consumers*
Maxim Alzoba
01:26:00
we might dig it up again, but it was a lot for applicants
Ariel Liang
01:26:47
Status Check :)
Mitch Stoltz
01:32:58
I strongly object to lumping trademark and para-trademark concerns into “abuse” as defined by the GAC.
Mitch Stoltz
01:33:58
lumping every constituency’s definition of bad behavior into a general category called “abuse” is the death of nuanced policymaking.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:35:15
I agree Mitch. but the GAC's PSWG does lump them together,
Mitch Stoltz
01:35:43
@kristine which is why that position is not worthy of our consideration here.
David McAuley
01:35:43
Thanks for Status Check, Ariel, had a brain freeze
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:35:58
Even if we succeed in separating "DNS Abuse" from "content/IP abuse" as we should, the fact is, either way the GAC will flip.
Ariel Liang
01:36:37
No worries! We invent terms for docs along the way to differentiate, but not super creative with the naming
David McAuley
01:36:37
Final call commets? will go to staff in a few
Mitch Stoltz
01:36:40
I thought the GAC did not set ICANN policy?
Maxim Alzoba
01:37:27
GAC may cause legal fragmentation of the laws regulating the internet, so they should not be neglected
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:37:27
The fact is ICANN policy says "no cybersquatting" so regardless of if we label cybersquatting "abuse" the fact is that removing the requirement for sunrise will made some TLDs havens for cybersquatting.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:38:12
@Kathy, yes. It started with .biz (Neustar) as I understand it.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:39:19
And with a few exceptions, the TMCH and sunrise are mostly working. There is absolutely not bandwidth for doing some sort of business plan review of TMs in the clearinghouse.
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:40:02
@Kathy, that's doesn't SOLVE anything. It introduces new and (previous) problems.
David McAuley
01:40:56
sorry Greg, missed hand
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:42:08
Remember, we have to think about these things in the context of is whatever is happening so bad that we need to rewrite what's largely working to fix it? We
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:42:23
Without introducing substantial new problems?
Maxim Alzoba
01:42:27
I do not think we need to suppress small companies and startups on early stage
Kristine Dorrain (Amazon Registry)
01:42:33
If the cure is worse than the disease we need to skip the cure.
Maxim Alzoba
01:42:34
of starting business
Mitch Stoltz
01:42:54
The problem is far broader than that. We also need to consider the negative effects that non-abusive sunrise registrations have had on the rights of others. Harder to measure but equally important.
Kathy Kleiman
01:42:58
@Maxim: what solution are you thinking?
Maxim Alzoba
01:43:43
I meant there is no way to distinguish good and bad actors before they do something bad, so we can not fix it, probably, can only minimise effects
Kathy Kleiman
01:43:49
Interesting, Greg, thank you.
David McAuley
01:43:54
Thanks Greg, good pioints
Greg Shatan
01:44:08
We can define "bad acts" even if we can't identify "bad actors" beforehand.
Mitch Stoltz
01:44:09
Thanks all
Maxim Alzoba
01:44:10
bye all
Kathy Kleiman
01:44:10
Tx David and All