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At-Large Policy Session 2: Tackling DNS Abuse - Shared screen with speaker view
Silvia Vivanco
32:28
Welcome all
Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org
33:00
Welcome Nigel
Gopal Tadepalli
33:09
Greetings. - Dr. T V Gopal, Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, College of Engineering, Guindy Campus, Anna University , Chennai, INDIA.
Nigel Hickson
33:47
Good evening; Chris Lewis Evans is also joining from GAC / PSWG
Roberto Gaetano
33:59
Hi all - sorry for being late
Eduardo Diaz
34:05
For those with low bandwidth you can watch live in the NARALO facebook group page: facebook.com/groups/naralo and NARALO youtube channel: https://youtu.be/gbhJCkJwKm4. Subscribe to our social media channels while you are there.
Shi Young Chang
38:05
Dear Nigel and Chris, thank you for attending from GAC.
Frank Anati
38:52
Hi everyone Frank Anati from Ghana https://www.linkedin.com/in/frank-anati/
Frank Anati
39:03
Nice to meet you all
Jonathan Zuck
40:08
Proszę
Jonathan Zuck
44:12
https://circleid.com/posts/20210820-dns-abuse-definition-attributes-of-mitigation
Sivasubramanian M
44:12
<question> Why is the DNS Abuse Institute defining DNS Abuse based on the perception of what can and can not be tackled?
Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org
45:07
Reminder - if you wish to hear French or Spanish interpretation, please contact staff[at]atlarge.icann.org or private message us
Sivasubramanian M
46:12
<supplementary to the question> Shouldn't the definition be unconstrained with a view to find ways of tackling even the types of abuse that are perceived to be difficult to mitigate?
Jonathan Zuck
50:33
.EU uses preventive
Bill Jouris
50:34
<QUESTION (for Graeme)>Has the Institute looked at the potential impact of Internationalization of Domain Names Project's very narrow definition of what constitutes a variants?</QUESTION>
Sivasubramanian M
52:11
For the collective action problem the solution is collective solution, whereby the monitoring and mitigation efforts are collective, i.e at a central space, with even costs deflected away from the Registry / Registrar... The response to abuse, or mitigation also could be from the collective abuse mitigation platform, almost as if the Registar / Registry has 'outsourced' DNS abuse functions to the central collective, free of cost.
Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow
54:35
<QUESTION> @ Grame , you said 100 or 200 thousand bad domain identified as bad domain which are suppose to involve in abuse, is there any list of those domain ? if have where can find this listand what does policy for those domain not to involve in future abusing?
Graeme Bunton
55:05
EuroDNS
Olévié Kouami
56:01
Greetings from Senegal
Michael Graham
56:19
Question for Graeme later: Will the DNS Abuse Institute also maintain and make public a list of domain names, registrants, registrars, and registries dealt with through its program and take any steps more broadly based on the information it obtains.
Graeme Bunton
56:55
I’ll try and answer those questions when we get to the Q&A!
Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow
57:07
Thank you!
Joanna Kulesza
58:07
Indeed, Greame, all Qs are being noted, Jonathan will refer to these as we progress with the agenda.
Sivasubramanian M
01:00:05
<Question @Brian> not a legal question, but does PIR as a Registry takes ownership of abuse incidents origining from .org, .ngo and .ong registrars and resellers?
Brian King
01:00:57
As Brian C notes, registries have been constructive and collaborative with IPC on a joint paper on IDN homoglyph attacks (to be published soon), which is much appreciated. Thanks to Verisign and Donuts specifically.
Graeme Bunton
01:03:10
4% is a huge increase.
Hadia Elminiawi
01:04:08
yes
Daniel Nanghaka
01:04:35
That is right
Brian King
01:05:42
PIR's QPI program is really smart approach. ICANN should extrapolate that incentivization across all gTLDs.
Hadia Elminiawi
01:06:14
+1 James collaboration is important
Brian Cimbolic
01:06:16
Thanks Sivasubramanian. Not sure I follow the question, but we certainly strive to recognize and mitigate DNS Abuse as soon as we can in all of our TLDs
Michelle DeSmyter - ICANN Org
01:08:36
A friendly reminder when speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for our interpreters - thank you!
Holly Raiche
01:08:51
@ Graeme - the link to your CircleID article please
Brian King
01:09:15
https://circleid.com/posts/20210820-dns-abuse-definition-attributes-of-mitigation
Holly Raiche
01:09:44
Thanks Brian
Brian Cimbolic
01:10:19
The RYSG and RRSG publication pages contain several of the documents I mentioned: https://rrsg.org/statements/ and https://www.rysg.info/resources/dnsabuseresources/
Holly Raiche
01:12:07
Thanks Brian
Christopher Wilkinson
01:16:32
@GoDaddy: which w Ould you prefer: a rigorous ICANN policy on DNS Abuse for all Regisries and Registrars OR discrete national and EU regulation? That is what is on the table today.- CW
Brian Cimbolic
01:17:19
As @Lori mentioned, here is some great work from the Internet & Jurisdiction Policy Network on these questions: https://www.internetjurisdiction.net/domains/toolkit
Hadia Elminiawi
01:19:20
Thanks Brian
Nigel Hickson UK GAC
01:19:42
+1 Lori
Hadia Elminiawi
01:21:11
Through ICANN self regulation is possible
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:22:47
+++ Lori!
Joanna Kulesza
01:23:36
Please note this might be attended to by the CoE Budapest Convention Additional Protocol II out for signature.
Holly Raiche
01:23:59
@ Joanna - a link please
Graeme Bunton
01:24:12
Pragmatically, I’ve not encountered a lot of scenarios where Registrant information was particularly useful for mitigating DNS in a case by case basis.
Holly Raiche
01:24:35
Thanks Graeme - further discussion?
Holly Raiche
01:25:33
@ Graeme - is your point covered in the CircleID article/
LORI SCHULMAN
01:25:41
https://www.inta.org/wp-content/uploads/public-files/advocacy/committee-reports/WHOIS-Challenges-A-Toolkit-for-Intellectual-Property-Professionals-3.20.20.pdf
Jonathan Zuck
01:25:49
Different point, Holly
LORI SCHULMAN
01:26:14
https://www.ipconstituency.org/position-papers
Holly Raiche
01:26:36
@ JZ - just asking Graeme for elaboration
Gopal Tadepalli
01:26:42
Any insights on the use of emojis in the domain name ? - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
Jonathan Zuck
01:26:58
Yes, just answering your question about the circled post
Graeme Bunton
01:27:00
@holly, I’m happy to talk to that point.
Hadia Elminiawi
01:27:21
Maybe we need a webinar dedicated only to actual scenarios
Holly Raiche
01:27:22
Thanks Graeme - please do
Olévié Kouami
01:27:42
Wrlcome on board Seyram from Togo
Olévié Kouami
01:27:47
Welcome
Bill Jouris
01:27:48
@Gopal, part (but only part) of the problem with emojis in domain names is the tiny differences between extremely similar images
Graeme Bunton
01:28:50
Hadia - I hosted a panel that tried to get at real examples. You can watch it here: https://circleid.com/posts/20210608-examing-real-examples-of-dns-abuse-overview-of-2nd-dns-abuse-forum
Joanna Kulesza
01:28:54
@Holly draft Second Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cybercrime (ETS 185) https://rm.coe.int/0900001680a42c4b hot off the press
Holly Raiche
01:29:21
Thanks Joanna
Joanna Kulesza
01:29:31
Articles 6 and 7 might be of particular interest.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:29:58
Agree that while "constrained" the Voluntary Framework definition does catch a net that will ensnare bad actors who infringe IP as well.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:30:20
And it is worthwhile to start somewhere to get where we need to be.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:30:46
Also agree that evidentiary standards are very helpful to the public and private sectors.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:31:31
We have even explored the idea of introducing some measure of data collection standards to brand owners so we can capture issue more consistently and accurately
LORI SCHULMAN
01:32:21
By "we", I meant INTA in this case.
Gopal Tadepalli
01:32:41
@Bill Jouris, thank you. I am sorry for being a bit tardy on the images used on the cover page on "The Psychology of Programming" by Gerald Marvin Weinberg. Things have become quite algorithmic. - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
Ashirwad Tripathy ICANN72 Fellow
01:33:45
<Comment> Covid has amplified the need of internet in education. With more young kids using internet, addressing DNS abuse is very urgent. Thank you for your efforts.
Joanna Kulesza
01:34:30
This is why we love to have you over @Nigel! Thanks again for joining.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:35:39
I don't agree about DAAR.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:35:48
I don't think the contracted parties agree either.
Ashley Heineman
01:35:55
I would like to point folks to the immense amount of work that the CPH has been engaged in as of late.
LORI SCHULMAN
01:35:58
Inscrutible.
Graeme Bunton
01:36:21
I have to agree with Lori re: DAAR
LORI SCHULMAN
01:36:26
@Ashley - we appreciate the work and I think it is well noted.
Ashley Heineman
01:36:48
I believe I just heard that we now need to start doing something.
Steinar Grøtterød
01:37:13
You may check the abuse statistic for your TLD or list of domain names for free using https://abusestats.com
Olévié Kouami
01:38:19
Please could you call this number on french channel ? +22891482857
Olévié Kouami
01:38:39
Merci
Graeme Bunton
01:42:07
Oooh. We’re not touching Registrant data access. So very different in that sense.
Alan Woods
01:42:29
SSAD and the CART do appear to be quite wildly different.
James Bladel
01:43:31
Or even state-level actors
LORI SCHULMAN
01:43:40
Love that "onsie, twosie, script kittys"
LORI SCHULMAN
01:43:51
And agree about the serious of the larger criminal orgs.
Holly Raiche
01:43:57
Thanks James - that is what I was asking myselfg
Holly Raiche
01:45:23
Role of the RIRs?
Holly Raiche
01:46:00
Should the RIR’s be part of this conversation?
Christopher Wilkinson
01:46:12
Could we please have a definition of DAAR ((google doesn’t know!)
Graeme Bunton
01:46:25
Domain abuse activity reports
Dennis Tan
01:46:38
https://www.icann.org/octo-ssr/daar
Brian King
01:46:42
https://www.icann.org/octo-ssr/daar
Nigel Hickson UK GAC
01:47:56
Meant to ask about applicability of BRDA across all gTLDs? A quick win?
Hadia Elminiawi
01:48:56
So how would you use DAAR?
Chris Lewis-Evans (PSWG - UK)
01:49:07
+1 Standardised mechanism for reporting will help effective and quicker action to be taken
Holly Raiche
01:49:41
Is one answer widening the role of DAAR?
Jeff Neuman
01:49:42
Agree with Brian. Unfortunately unless ICANN gets permission to share DAAR data, it cannot be used as a tool in the manner many would like.
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:50:09
Yup points perhaps to be made in the PC
Daniel Nanghaka
01:50:18
There is a lot of restriction in DAAR and it cannot just be shared anyhow
Christopher Wilkinson
01:50:42
@DAAR. Should I encounter manifest abuse, what happens when I report the abuse to DAAR?
Jeff Neuman
01:50:44
@Holly - its very frustrating to get a notice from ICANN about abuse and then asking ICANN (a) what is the source of your information, (b) can you tell me exactly what activity is going on,, etc.....and them saying....we cannot tell you that
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:51:21
As Brian stated in his excellent metaphor... Screwdrivers probably not the best tool to try to hammer with.
Steinar Grøtterød
01:51:22
In my understanding, DAAR is a “tool” for ICANN Compliance and give for the public trends in DNS Abuse. Whether this is the best use of money, can be discussed
Jeff Neuman
01:51:39
@Steiner - agreed.
Bill Jouris
01:51:57
@Cheryl, but better than trying to use a hammer as a screwdriver
Holly Raiche
01:52:45
@ Jeff- thanks for the responsse
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:53:08
@Bill you can use a laser to cut butter as well … bit he ensuing results are probably not satisfactory or fit for purpose...
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
01:53:24
But the (typos sorry)
Donna Austin
01:53:53
Related to the DAAR discussion, the RySG undertook a review of DAAR twelve months ago and provided feedback to OCTO. https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/austin-to-conrad-09sep20-en.pdf
Bill Jouris
01:54:22
@Cheryl, so true!
Holly Raiche
01:54:25
Thanks Donna
Holly Raiche
01:57:03
Are we including the ccTLD registries in the discussions?
LORI SCHULMAN
01:57:36
But when they boil down to the DNS, it is an ICANN problem.
Brian Cimbolic
01:57:36
Holly CENTR usually has pretty robust discussions around DNS Abuse related questions
Holly Raiche
01:57:45
Thanks Brian
Holly Raiche
01:58:08
(@ Brian - and beyond CENTR
Brian Cimbolic
01:58:26
That I’m not sure of
Hadia Elminiawi
01:58:26
<Question> If DAAR is to show we are not doing well, what do we do next? <Question>
LORI SCHULMAN
01:58:30
For information about domain name registrants, it is.
Steinar Grøtterød
01:58:48
17 ccTLDs are now included in DAAR (https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/daar-cctld-2021-05-11-en)
Holly Raiche
01:58:53
@ Brian - maybe part of a much larger problem???
J-P Voilleque - ICANN 72 Fellow
01:59:12
Not to shamelessly plug, but ICANNWiki would greatly benefit from the energy and expertise of the participants in this call. Editor Jessica Rivers has been overhauling and expanding our articles on DNS Abuse over the past year: https://icannwiki.org/DNS_Abuse
Brian Cimbolic
01:59:23
Potentially Holly, but it’s tricky because those are necessarily outside of ICANN’s remit
Holly Raiche
01:59:35
@ Brian - EXACTLY....
Joanna Kulesza
01:59:52
We will have a dedicated DNS Abuse section during the GAC/ALAC meeting for us to keep this discussion going. There clearly is more to be discussed. Great to have the PSWG join us here today!
Brian Cimbolic
02:00:13
It’s just one company but here’s the transparency data PIR publishes: https://thenew.org/org-people/about-pir/resources/anti-abuse-metrics/
LORI SCHULMAN
02:00:16
This was a great turnout Joanna -- thank you again to ALAC
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
02:01:02
Thank you all for such an excellent session....
Gregory Shatan
02:01:07
More coordination and collaboration is in order. ICANN's limited remit does not force us to work in a vacuum -- quite the opposite.
Joanna Kulesza
02:01:20
+10 Greg!
Cheryl Langdon-Orr
02:01:28
Well noted @Greg
Nigel Hickson UK GAC
02:01:34
Joanna, many thanks
Sarah Kiden
02:01:39
Agree, Greg
Brian Cimbolic
02:02:15
More info on QPI www.qpi.org
Holly Raiche
02:03:32
Thanks for the link Brian - LOTS of reading to do
James Bladel
02:04:16
I’m sorry, I need to drop for another event. Thank you to ALAC for a thoughtful and engaging session, and all the speakers for contributing. I hope to “see” more of you at ICANN 72 next week!
Joanna Kulesza
02:04:34
Thank you for being here James!
Shah Zahidur Rahman ICANN72 Fellow
02:05:49
Thank you all the speakers, it was great session!
maureen hilyard
02:08:42
An excellent overview of the session speakers contributions by Olivier.
Heidi Ullrich - ICANN Org
02:09:12
Many thanks, All.
Robert Nkambwe (ICANN72 Fellow)
02:09:13
Thanks Olivier.
Gopal Tadepalli
02:09:20
Do we have the luxury of distinguishing Data and Fact? - Dr. T V Gopal, Anna University, Chennai, INDIA
LORI SCHULMAN
02:09:24
Perfectly summarized Olivier. Well done!
LORI SCHULMAN
02:09:38
I think the answer to Joanna's question is that we are not ready to export this out of ICANN.
Gisella Gruber - ICANN Org
02:09:44
Thank you to all those who joined us here!
LORI SCHULMAN
02:09:46
but we can hope.
Chris Lewis-Evans (PSWG - UK)
02:09:48
Thank you all.
Shi Young Chang
02:09:50
Thank you all.
Brian Cimbolic
02:09:51
Thanks so much, all!
Vanda Scartezini
02:09:51
Thank you all for so interesting meeting !
Hadia Elminiawi
02:09:51
Thank you all - bye for now
Lito Ibarra
02:09:56
Thank you all
Silvia Vivanco - ICANN Org
02:09:59
Thank you all!
Herb Waye Ombuds
02:09:59
Take care everyone, stay safe and be kind
Siranush Vardanyan - ICANN Org
02:09:59
Very thoughtful session, thanks to all speakers
Nigel Hickson UK GAC
02:10:01
well done olivier
Michel TCHONANG LINZE
02:10:01
Thank you very much
Alberto Soto
02:10:02
Thanks, bye bye!!
Evin Erdogdu - ICANN org
02:10:02
Thank you Joanna, presenters and all for joining!
Harold Arcos
02:10:05
Thank you all
maureen hilyard
02:10:07
thank you Joanna
Dave Kissoondoyal
02:10:08
Very interesting session.. thanks to the speakers and all
Mansur Mirzoev - ICANN72 Fellow
02:10:12
Thank you, very interesting session!
Ashirwad Tripathy ICANN72 Fellow
02:10:12
Thank you all
Roberto Gaetano
02:10:12
Bye all