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ICANN Stakeholder Assembly: Briefing by the European Commission on the recent EU initiatives on digital services and cybersecurity - Shared screen with speaker view
Joanna Kulesza
24:19
Hi Elena and all, thanks for organizing this!
Marita Moll
24:33
Me too, came in early
Herb Waye
25:19
Greetings from the Office of the Ombuds… always nice to join these informative sessions. Hope everyone is staying healthy and safe.
Göran Marby
27:32
Hi All.
Sabine Meyer
28:38
hello everyone! may thanks to ICANN for organizing this event
Marco Hogewoning
30:30
Looks like we have the band back together
Charles Shaban
32:12
I was part of ICANN band long time ago, good to be back!
Elaine Pruis
32:31
HI Charles!
Charles Shaban
32:57
Hi Elaine
Chris Disspain
33:22
Charles Shaban! Greetings!!!!
Charles Shaban
33:36
Chris long time :)
Manal Ismail
33:40
Hello everyone :) !!
Nigel Hickson
34:07
Good afternoon from sunny London
Abdeldjalil Bachar Bong
34:30
yes
Lori Schulman
34:35
Hi Manal, and hi to all. Great to see old friends. Or "not see" old friends as the case may be.
Charles Shaban
35:04
Manal and Lori not that long for me, glad to see you too !
Peter Koch
35:33
do others observe the grey rectangles on the text, as well?
Manal Ismail
35:50
yes @Peter ..
Dean Marks
35:52
Yes
Jan Janssen
35:54
yes
Sabine Meyer
35:54
yes, I assume the speaker has some chat windows or notifications open
Dave Knight
36:04
Hey Marco! Everyone...
MILTON Mueller
36:08
Since ICANN doesn’t deal with content regulation and the DSA seems to be all about content regulation, I am wondering why we are hearing about DSA at all
Manal Ismail
36:14
Great to reconnect @Lori and @Charles ..
Leonid Todorov
37:31
+1 to Milton, except for consideration of service providers' liability?
Fred Baker
38:54
Service Provider legal liability is not, to my knowledge, assessed by ICANN.
Göran Marby
39:17
And for clarity, ICANN is not a regulator
Leonid Todorov
39:41
+1 to Goran
Nigel Hickson
40:16
Think, we did not do too bad in securing a directive back then which has lasted over 20 years despite rapid changes to Internet.
Robert Carolina
40:36
+1 to Nigel Hickson
Göran Marby
40:50
And this law might have an impact on the possibility for ICANN to create policy
Rick Lane
40:54
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
MILTON Mueller
40:57
ICANN is not supposed to be a regulator, but of course it does regulate entry into registry and registrar market, terms and conditions of services, and dispute resolution.
Jeff Neuman
41:13
Although I agree that much of this is beyond the mandate of ICANN, I truly appreciate this discussion if for no other reason than for education purposes.
Peter Koch
41:24
see: the third ’S’ in SSR is for ‘safety’
Göran Marby
41:31
Milton, we disagree on that.
MILTON Mueller
41:36
You can get a masters degree in digital public policy from Georgia Tech Jeff ;-)
Elena Plexida
41:37
The DSA is included in the list of initiatives that are of relevance to the DNS and that we are discussing for information today, as DNS service providers are under scope
Marco Hogewoning
41:38
I keep getting black bars over the slides. - can we switch to the unreacted deck?
Peter Koch
42:24
@Marco: this is NewIP in action …
Marco Hogewoning
42:33
ouch
Marco Hogewoning
43:00
Joking of course - but slightly annoying, even when I have seen this press before
Jeff Neuman
43:03
@Milton - I haven't ruled that out :) But I am not sure I am smart enough for Georgia Tech :)
Anastasia Sendrea
43:06
:D
Erich Schweighofer
43:10
Hello - best greetings from Brussels!
MILTON Mueller
43:28
You are a clever and experienced guy, Jeff
Marco Hogewoning
43:32
And FYI, New IP has a new name “polymorphic networking” and that unfortunately is not a joke
Volker Greimann
43:47
Does the proposed new text clearly include registries and registrars as intermediaries?
John McCormac
44:19
Should be interesting to see those comments, Volker :)
wolfgang kleinwaec hter
44:43
@ New IP: Where it is now discussed?
MILTON Mueller
44:50
it’s dead
MILTON Mueller
45:05
maybe discussed in Beijing?
Philip Corwin
45:11
DSA Recital 27 says it applies to, among others, "domain name system (DNS) services, top–level domain name registries"
Anriette Esterhuysen
45:12
Marco, would you prefer polyamorous networking?
MILTON Mueller
45:32
Great, thanks EU, you can restore The Donald to his Twitter account
Lucien Castex
45:37
Recitals 27 and 83 yes
Chris Buckridge
45:42
An actual LOL - thanks Anriette!
Anriette Esterhuysen
46:05
Its Friday
MILTON Mueller
46:21
:-)
Marco Hogewoning
46:43
Anriette LOL and I guess it depends on the venue where it is developed and the principles applied
Sabine Meyer
46:56
@Anri, speaking in a strictly private capacity: Oi! :D
Chris Buckridge
47:16
Friday indeed… :D
Marco Hogewoning
48:10
Very Friday
Marco Hogewoning
48:36
Almost 5 o’clock in my part of the world
MILTON Mueller
48:40
interesting discussion of the changing scope of liability exemptions
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
49:13
Agree, Milton
Lucien Castex
49:19
Same here, 1h to curfew xD
Julie Michel
50:34
yes !
Lucien Castex
50:50
Lol indeed
Lucien Castex
51:03
Still there
Geo Van Langenhove
51:12
you need to click on the "pin" when sharing a screen
Charles Shaban
51:36
Here 6 PM on a weekend, but today full curfew since morning here, so good to do something beneficial!
Nigel Hickson
52:20
In 1999 we were focusing on news groups; news and early web services; not much social media......
MILTON Mueller
52:54
DNS is (correctly) classified as an intermediary exempt from liability.
MILTON Mueller
52:58
??
Jothan Frakes
53:16
@milton the whois information is on the black boxes ;)
MILTON Mueller
53:26
LOL
Lucien Castex
53:28
Confidentiality ;-)
MILTON Mueller
53:35
redacted due to GDPR
Chris Mondini
53:39
There will be a recording of this session available
Fred Baker
53:55
And the recording will contain the same occlusion?
MILTON Mueller
54:01
yep
MILTON Mueller
54:14
but if you apply with a proper legal basis you can get them removed
Geo Van Langenhove
54:30
Can the slides be shared afterwards, please?
Fred Baker
54:51
I don't live in Europe. I don't expect I have the indicated access.
Michele Neylon
57:36
What’s the official definition of an SME at EU level ?
Fred Baker
58:03
Define "small"? ISC is a small company whose open source products and DNS Root services are used by many users throughout the world. Are we small or large?
Nigel Hickson
58:24
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/smes/sme-definition_en
John McCormac
58:30
That's could create a mess for DNSes that are only authoritative for their own domain name. There doesn't seem to be any definition on the number of domain names hosted.
Michele Neylon
58:47
thanks Nigel
Michele Neylon
59:15
@JMCC - yes ping me offline about that - we’re trying to get input back to the department
Jothan Frakes
59:19
thank you for the SME definitions link Nigel
Fred Baker
59:25
Of course, every TLD or second level is only authoritative for itself.
Marie Pattullo
59:51
Fewer than 250 employees & annual turnover not exceeding EUR 50 million.
John McCormac
01:00:16
Will do, Michele
Michele Neylon
01:00:22
So we’re safe for now Marie :)
Jothan Frakes
01:00:29
assuming 'or equivalent in local currency' is implied on those fin threshholds
Michele Neylon
01:00:43
Jothan - you’re still fine
Marie Pattullo
01:01:23
Sure, it's an EU definition, Jothan.
Jothan Frakes
01:01:32
very - and I hope there are lower qualificications than micro - if I go by balance sheet, with all of the additional policy costs I go negative balance ;)
Peter Koch
01:02:31
this is the Dutch court of Bremen?
Jothan Frakes
01:03:27
sanctions or fines of 6% of the providers's [▒▒▒]
mark svancarek
01:03:33
lol
Volker Greimann
01:03:52
I thought the same, Peter
Jothan Frakes
01:05:37
that was a good presentation, all kidding aside. will the slides be shared? The zoom presentation redacted portions of the screen unintentionally
Jorge Cancio
01:06:06
is there case-law under Directive 2000/31 and national laws on whether registries and registrars fall under that Dieective?
Jothan Frakes
01:06:33
@jorge you should ask this in the Q&A not chat
Michele Neylon
01:06:40
+1 Jothan
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:06:43
Good question, Jorge
Jeff Neuman
01:06:57
One of the issues of Registries being required to do "take downs" is that Registries cant just take down the harmful content but can only take down ALL the content of the entire site.
Robert Carolina
01:06:58
@Jorge: Interesting question. I’m struggling to see how Registries would actually become liable based on registration activity. ISPs are nervous because they “carry” content - but a registry service does not.
Lucien Castex
01:06:59
Mention in the NIS directive also
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:07:07
Though Bremen might now be Dutch, I have difficulty seeing how a court desciciosn from another jurisdiction outside Norwegian jurisdiction could be enforced directly in the Norwegian jurisdiction
Jorge Cancio
01:07:35
done 😉
Marco Hogewoning
01:08:04
For the record: last I looked NL was still a sovereign state
Erich Schweighofer
01:08:34
Brussels Ia Regulation + Lugano Convention
Jorge Cancio
01:08:50
gracias, Irene!
John McCormac
01:08:52
It mentions HSPs but not resellers. Is there any coverage of resellers?
John McCormac
01:09:34
The sale chain is often registry - registrars - resellers - public.
Dean Marks
01:09:34
Can a registry be considered a very large platform if its meets the financial/revenue requirements?
Göran Marby
01:09:58
For this legislation to happen all member states and the parliament needs to agree.
Peter Koch
01:10:50
interesting; ‘takedown’ obligations are easily conflicting with critical infrastructure provisions
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:11:06
In Norway, the supreme court has ruled several times that a registry shall not judge wether or not content is or could be illegal or not, that is the taks of the law enforcement and the courts to do.
Christopher Wilkinson
01:11:09
@ John McC: it has long b been clear to me that resellers should be under contract with iCANN or otherwise accountable to the rules of their Registrars.
Michele Neylon
01:11:20
Christopher - they already are
Michele Neylon
01:11:28
accountable
Michele Neylon
01:11:31
not under contract
Nigel Hickson
01:11:55
Thank you so much; that was very informative.
Jeff Neuman
01:12:11
Yes, thank you for the presentation!
John McCormac
01:12:21
It is a very complex problem, Christopher and the EC hasn't the expertise to properly quantify it. Legislation without clear definitions is iffy.
Manal Ismail
01:12:46
Thanks for the presentation .. Very informative ..
mark svancarek
01:12:47
@Michele, could you explain the accountability for resellers? I am uninformed. Thx
Geo Van Langenhove
01:13:16
Thank you for this presentation!
Chris Mondini
01:13:43
Thanks all, for your patience
Cathrin Bauer-Bulst
01:13:45
@Göran: unanimity principle is true for some laws, not here, so a qualified majority of Member States have to agree, plus the EP (also majority vote)
Michele Neylon
01:13:58
Mark - I’ll ping you somewhere else
Owen Smigelski
01:14:00
Section 3.12 of the RAA makes registrars responsible for their resellers
John McCormac
01:15:11
@Mark There are approx. 2.5K gtld registrars. But only about 600 retail registrars. Some of these registrars have resellers. There can be hundreds of thousands of resellers just in gTLDs alone. Some cctld registrars are resellers for gTLDs rather than accredited gTLD registrars and vice versa.
Jothan Frakes
01:15:29
@marksv under 3.12 ot the RAA Resellers are under the same requirements of the registrar which they work through, That, PLUS whatever the registrar may add as T&C or AUP to suit regional or other policy regimes, per registry contract requirments, etc.
Jothan Frakes
01:16:19
to be clear, we are talking about resellers in gTLDs that are under ICANN mandate, not ccTLDs nor legacy gTLDs not under ICANN purview
Göran Marby
01:16:46
Thanks for making my point live…
mark svancarek
01:17:01
Thanks, all for clarifying the accountability of resellers
John McCormac
01:17:11
@Jothan it gets really interesting when registrars have their own almost independent reseller operations.
John McCormac
01:17:53
Some of the large operators can have a hundred or so different brands.
Jothan Frakes
01:18:23
There are cross-jurisdictional nuances where reseller is in different country or region covered
Jothan Frakes
01:18:30
also, "I am not an attorney"
Jothan Frakes
01:18:46
but I know a few really good ones
IRENE ROCHE LAGUNA
01:19:20
On expected timeline of adoption for DSA: the negotiations have just started, but both Commission, Council and EP share a sense of urgency - France wants to finalise negotiations under their Presidency (2022)...
IRENE ROCHE LAGUNA
01:19:38
But short answer is: hard to say :)
Lucien Castex
01:20:54
@Irene : clearly ambitious ;-)
Oksana Prykhodko
01:24:59
Passports of vaccines on mobiles - who can supervise cybersecurity standards for all these mobile applications? Especially for non-EU countries?
Jeff Neuman
01:25:33
Thank you @Irene
James Galvin
01:25:56
Iren
MILTON Mueller
01:26:02
Good question Oksana, they probably have no idea how to answer it
Jothan Frakes
01:26:56
I am starting to see why projects are decentralizing
Ashley Heineman
01:27:53
Many of us feel your pain Christian!
Thomas De Haan
01:28:27
@Milton, thanks for your confidence in the EC ;-)
MILTON Mueller
01:29:25
Well, territorial jurisidiction and global internet don’t match, seems authorities around the world keep bumping up against this
Fred Baker
01:29:46
Redacted slides again.
Lucien Castex
01:29:49
Big grey rectangle on. My side
MILTON Mueller
01:29:56
needs to go into presentation mode
Lucien Castex
01:30:00
^^
Robert Carolina
01:30:09
^^
Alan Greenberg
01:30:40
Blacked out rectangles getting bigger!
Jothan Frakes
01:30:46
I started to sigh relief about the scale of a business / SME providing some relief to registrars to have a chance to open back up .... until bill's presentation - it sounds like the SME definitions and exceptions on scale are irellevant
Jakob Zanol
01:31:56
ist the presenters view
Jothan Frakes
01:32:06
at least this way the black boxes do not block the slides
Lucien Castex
01:32:10
A bit better but it’s the wrong presenter view
Laureen Kapin
01:32:19
That's better.
Ivan Dolnák
01:33:17
3 dots menu - close notes for the presenter, than its real fullcreen
Becky Burr
01:33:33
if negotiations are finalized in 2022 then transposition deadline will be in 2024 or 2025, depending on actual 2022 date? what are the chances that member states would transpose faster than 18 months?
Michele Neylon
01:34:05
zero
Sabine Meyer
01:34:12
if the infringement proceedings regarding the EECC are any indication, Becky, not exachtly high
Michele Neylon
01:34:25
Ireland usually misses the deadline
Jothan Frakes
01:34:52
and the kids are at the cat videos on YouTube again...
MILTON Mueller
01:34:55
yikes. rectangle proliferation
Michele Neylon
01:35:20
He needs a better router with QOS rules
mark svancarek
01:36:03
Obviously we should ditch Zoom and switch over to Microsoft Teams
Jothan Frakes
01:36:10
agree
Ivan Dolnák
01:36:11
No, its low quality mic. :)
Kristof Tuyteleers
01:36:33
DNS4EU … the new monster of Loch Ness
MILTON Mueller
01:36:43
Paid advertisement, Mark?
mark svancarek
01:36:58
At your service, Milton!
Jothan Frakes
01:37:24
the screens would be blue and not black ;)
mark svancarek
01:37:33
lol
Michele Neylon
01:37:48
the error messages would be more cryptic
Marco Hogewoning
01:37:49
@kristoff didn’t Quad9 already solve that by moving in this direction?
Fred Baker
01:37:54
I dunno. I tried to use Teams for a talk in Pakistan from California, and it was a disaster. The fix was to use zoom.
Jothan Frakes
01:37:57
there so now its less an advert. MS = member states again
wolfgang kleinwaec hter
01:38:02
Question to Christian: Any plans for an initiative on LAWS?
Volker Greimann
01:39:05
laws?
wolfgang kleinwaec hter
01:39:13
Lethal Autonomous Weapon Systems
Elena Plexida
01:39:37
Thanks Wolfgang
Lucien Castex
01:41:08
yep
Lucien Castex
01:41:18
2 rectangles
John McCormac
01:41:19
Just to quantify that DNS issue with single domain hosters. There were 879,165 hosters (dns grouped by domain name) in .COM in Jan 2021. Of these, 525,995 were single domain name hosters.
Sabine Meyer
01:42:05
interesting, thanks John
Lucien Castex
01:42:22
Thanks indeed
Marco Hogewoning
01:42:38
And how many individual authoritative servers were involved in serving those domains?
Michele Neylon
01:42:57
525,995
Michele Neylon
01:43:06
I wouldn’t mutiply by two
Michele Neylon
01:43:17
since I’m seeing so many running two NS off one IP
Michele Neylon
01:43:22
but John probably knows
John McCormac
01:44:03
Those are hosters (dns grouped by domain name of hoster). Yep. Some control panels automatically set up DNS and single IP DNS is not unusual. At least one major HSP does this.
Oksana Prykhodko
01:44:09
Is there any search tool for comments and answers in Zoom?
Jothan Frakes
01:45:07
Is there a way to change the ironic redaction settings in zoom?
Ashley Heineman
01:45:12
Anycast nodes.
John McCormac
01:45:38
Because all this setup is automated, the registrant may not even have a clue that they have a DNS associated with their domain name.
Michele Neylon
01:45:53
JMCC - yes
Michele Neylon
01:46:02
most of them don’t know what it is or why it matters
Jothan Frakes
01:46:24
@jmcc yes and ... enter things like handshake that completely decentralize DNS
John McCormac
01:46:38
Or care, Michele. The only thing that matters is that it works.
Ashley Heineman
01:46:45
"Autonomous" root servers isn't necessary unless there is a desire to alter the contents of the zone. I hope that isn't the case.
Jaap Akkerhuis
01:47:02
The silly eu root servers idea again…
John McCormac
01:47:18
@Jothan it is hard enough to track the zones as it is. :)
Michele Neylon
01:47:18
there are root servers in the EU - yes
Jaap Akkerhuis
01:47:20
They really don’t understand
Michele Neylon
01:47:25
I really don’t want the EU operating them
Peter Koch
01:47:36
the question is what problem is this the solution for?
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:47:57
+1 Peter Koch:-)
Michele Neylon
01:47:58
Peter- it’s a solution looking for a problem
Jaap Akkerhuis
01:48:10
Yep, 15 years ago I discussed this with the commission as well.
Anne-Marie Eklund Löwinder
01:48:16
EU funding - hm - tempting. :)
Jothan Frakes
01:48:31
Did China do this well?
Ashley Heineman
01:48:37
Europe is immensely provisioned for resolution service, so what is the issue?
Michele Neylon
01:48:49
Ashley - US big tech?
Michele Neylon
01:48:54
beyond that I don’t know
Michele Neylon
01:49:02
(bogeyman I assume)
MILTON Mueller
01:49:03
Measures of market concentration asserted are completely wrong. We (IGP, Ga Tech) would be happy to point you to some research about that
Jaap Akkerhuis
01:49:04
@ashkey. Yes, that has always been my argument,
John McCormac
01:49:39
Getting a .EU ccTLD vibe about this and not in a good way.
Michele Neylon
01:49:57
@JMCC - you saw my blog post? :)
John McCormac
01:50:21
The EC's wonderful bidding process? :)
Michele Neylon
01:50:28
yes
Peter Koch
01:50:31
so sad there are no venues for good practices for the DNS
John McCormac
01:50:53
Strange that they missed the whole Brexit thing. :)
Yilin Sun
01:51:08
at least some Chinesescholar understand it is not necessary and try to keep a distance with the idea of running a separate Chinanet
Jeff Neuman
01:52:31
I haven't heard the term "ICANN" used when talking about DNS standards. Is that for a reason?
Jeff Neuman
01:52:58
a reason?
Michele Neylon
01:52:59
Jeff - wouldn’t they be coming from IETF?
MILTON Mueller
01:53:09
Delusions of digital sovereignty from the EU
Peter Koch
01:53:10
that depends on your definition of ‘standard’
Michele Neylon
01:53:14
(you did say standard)
wolfgang kleinwaec hter
01:53:15
How much support the technical community needs from the EU
MILTON Mueller
01:53:44
None?
Jeff Neuman
01:53:48
@Michele - IETF develops technical standards, but I would argue the policy standards are not within the IETF
Jeff Neuman
01:54:29
So within the IETF they developed the standard for DNSSEC. The promotion and adoption of DNSSEC is not within the scope of IETF (in my opinion)
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:54:32
Agree, Jeff
John McCormac
01:54:36
Is someone going to mention WHOIS accuracy to the EU and the related problems?
Michele Neylon
01:54:44
Jeff - ccTLDs are not bound by ICANN
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
01:55:01
Absolutely right, Michele
Jeff Neuman
01:55:19
@Michele - I didn't hear that any of this was limited to ccTLDs.....but perhaps I missed it
Michele Neylon
01:55:40
When the EU talks it’s looking at member states and ccTLDs - not ignoring gTLDs
Jothan Frakes
01:56:09
if you count .eu as a ccTLD, I could see the EC proclaiming THAT one in scope
Jeff Neuman
01:56:12
@Michele - I believe it also looking at gTLDs that operate within the EU
Jan Janssen
01:56:51
Your belief is correct Jeff
John McCormac
01:56:55
@Jeff It is a gateway TLD rather than a ccTLD. People go there before being redirected elsewhere.
Peter Koch
01:56:56
anyone here been involved in these ‘studies’?
Jeff Neuman
01:56:57
And I believe that these stats now on registries and registrars is likely with gTLDs
Ashley Heineman
01:57:07
This is a serious question: Who determines if the information is "accurate?" The person who provided it?
John McCormac
01:57:28
And there's the Catch 22, Ashley. :)
Ashley Heineman
01:57:36
precisely.
Ivan Dolnák
01:57:48
There are still EU Member States without at least a single copy of the root server located in the territory and network infrastructure of the country. The local government has no competence to address this issue. Yes, it is a security issue. What do you suggest as a solution?https://root-servers.org/
Kristof Tuyteleers
01:57:49
@Peter also a Loch Ness monster story I guess
mark svancarek
01:58:07
,Who determines if information is accurate in any "know your customer" law?
Fred Baker
01:58:28
If they are responding regarding something registered with them, I would expect them to give the information associated with the registration. If that information is no longer accurate, I don't see how they can assure that.
Lori Schulman
01:58:39
Do we have a frame of reference for what would constitute "undue delay"?
Jeff Neuman
01:58:41
Plus as we all know, things that apply within the EU (or conversely within the US) have a funny way of making it into treaties and trade agreements.....
Ashley Heineman
01:58:51
Mark - is that the case for this directive? I'm not sure that is the case.
John McCormac
01:59:00
@Peter I compile stats and have never heard of these people. They don't seem to be able to quantify the problems that they want to solve.
mark svancarek
01:59:42
Ashley - it feels like a de facto KYC regulation.
mark svancarek
02:00:08
Which is why I suggest using 3rd party identity providers
Jothan Frakes
02:00:28
This feels a bit like we're being legislated into a scylla and Charybdis situation on untangling the redaction conseqeunces
Griffin Barnett
02:00:29
Accuracy under GDPR is defined in relation to the purposes for which it is processed, so arguably if data is processed for a purpose of facilitating communication to a domain registrant, then the registrant’s provision of a non-functional email address would not be sufficient, etc.
Griffin Barnett
02:00:49
Even if that was intentional by the data subject
Peter Koch
02:01:00
Accuracy in the GDPR is a sole right of the data subject, which is not the scope here
Griffin Barnett
02:01:10
Can you provide a source for that?
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
02:01:51
@Peter Koch: Agree with you
mark svancarek
02:02:12
NIS2D is not GDPR. It is addition to GDPR. Accuracy requirements in NIS2D are separate from GDPR and do not conflict with GDPR.
Marco Hogewoning
02:02:46
Will the Q&A be publsihed as well, for as far as these questions were answered via correspondence?
MILTON Mueller
02:02:53
Why can’t you do that via ICANN?
MILTON Mueller
02:03:16
EU is represented in GAC, and Europeans are active in all stakeholder groups, SOs and ACs
John McCormac
02:04:49
@Milton The domain market is already balkanizing. The ccTLDS are outstripping sales of gTLDS in their country level markets.
MILTON Mueller
02:05:44
That’s incorrect @John. a larger market share for ccTLDs has nothing to do with “balkanizing” DNS
Geo Van Langenhove
02:05:53
@Peter: GDPR Art. 5 2: The controller shall be responsible for, and be able to demonstrate compliance with, paragraph 1 (‘accountability’).And paragraph 1 says "Personal data shall be: (d) accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date; every reasonable step must be taken to ensure that personal data that are inaccurate, having regard to the purposes for which they are processed, are erased or rectified without delay (‘accuracy’);"
John McCormac
02:05:53
ccTLD reg volume as a % in country markets overtook gTLD reg volume in many countries since 2008.
MILTON Mueller
02:06:03
The root is still uniform and the root zone the same
John McCormac
02:06:11
@Milton The domain name market rather than DNS.
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
02:06:19
I find that is a huge difference in having a (potential)obligation to _identify_ the registrant/Customer versus receive/secure “accurate” registration data about the said registrant/customer
MILTON Mueller
02:06:41
We are not talking about DNS market share, it’s totally irrelevant to the issue of governing security and operations of the global DNS
Russ Housley
02:07:33
why just DNS-RELATED WHOIS data? Isn't IP data equally important?
steve crocker
02:08:15
They seem to have completely bypassed addressing and routing.
John McCormac
02:08:16
@Milton it is ccTLD markets versus gTLD markets. The gTLDs have been overtaken in EU by ccTLD reg volume/sales. The balkanization aspect applies to how markets are splitting and moving away from gTLDs as their primary domain names.
Alan Greenberg
02:08:29
Answer about max fines not applying to Art 23 does not answer the question about whether there are ANY fines.
mark svancarek
02:09:58
Answer about max fines does not explain how one can avoid a fine if there is noncompliance in spite of best efforts and swift mitigation once noncompliance is detected.
MILTON Mueller
02:10:29
John, again, it is nonsensical to refer to shifting market shares as “balkanization” or fragmentation. The market is globally integrated, even if the shares of different providers change
mark svancarek
02:11:48
John, you and Milton are having a pedantic debate about the word "balkanization". Just replace that word and you can discuss the topic more clearly.
Ashley Heineman
02:12:18
If the customer willingly provides false information who is responsible in terms of the accuracy requirement?
Volker Greimann
02:12:19
Thank you for the clear and unambiguous statement regarding the protection of personal data contained in legal person data.
Данко Јевтовић
02:12:20
hello from the Balkans ;)
John McCormac
02:12:26
@Milton When a market shifts,, the number of single registration domain name rises in a ccTLD. The registrants don't bother registering domain names in other TLDs (gTLDs) as they did historically.
John McCormac
02:12:32
:)
MILTON Mueller
02:13:58
what you don’t seem to understand is that the only reason people can make a market choice between ccTLDs and gTLDs is that the root zone is integrated and either domain name will work globally. Do you understand that now?
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
02:14:12
In earlier times, that was easy. You registered in you local ccTLD and .com or some of the others. Now it is too many gTLDs to cover everything.
MILTON Mueller
02:14:23
I am talking about the global governance structure for the entire DNS. I care nothing about who has what market share
John McCormac
02:14:34
I'm talking about markets and not DNS.
MILTON Mueller
02:15:06
indeed. which is irrelevant to the issues we are discussing here
John McCormac
02:16:14
It is quite relevant because the markets dictate registration patterns and in the EU, the trend has been towards ccTLDs and away from gTLDs for some time now.
MILTON Mueller
02:16:51
do you need a globally accepted root or not?
John McCormac
02:17:00
Yes.
MILTON Mueller
02:17:29
Case closed. Whether 4% of users shift from gTLDs to ccTLDs is not an important issue in NIS2 or anywhere really
John McCormac
02:20:54
Some gTLDs are flatlining in EU markets. Some of the largest ccTLDs are EU ccTLDs. The .COM was the main TLD in some of these markets until the ccTLDs took over. It is very important when the EU has to deal with a multitude of registries than just ICANN. Many of those registries are within EU jurisdiction.
Craig Schwartz
02:22:48
Is there a reliable resources on ccTLD registration trends in the last 3-5 years and in comparison to gTLDs?
Michele Neylon
02:23:07
Craig - JMCC would probably have that data
John McCormac
02:25:31
I also put the historical %s from the Versign/ccTLD markets in the Domnomics book in the Domain Tasting chapter. Should be in the free pages.
steve crocker
02:26:11
Interesting answer re whether registrars are essential providers. The answer focused on whether the registrar is also a DNS provider. In other words, their function as a DNS provider is primary and their function as a registrar is not considered. Conversely, in the ICANN contractual and governance framework, registrars have a primary role and DNS providers are not part of either the contractual or governance framework.
Volker Greimann
02:28:11
Steve, I noticed that too. Disappointing...
Alan Greenberg
02:28:14
@Steve, the answer is problematic as the DNS aspects of a registrar are not mandatory and not offering these would be a convenient way to avoid the obligations!
John McCormac
02:29:45
Some of the larger DNS providers are actually registrars now. (Cloudflare being a good example.) The line is getting a bit blurred.
Oksana Prykhodko
02:30:03
Is it possible to invite you to participate in national IGF and especially Youth IGF in non-EU countries?
Jothan Frakes
02:31:14
I think we'll now see registrars spinning off their associated DNS offerings
Hadia Elminiawi
02:31:15
Thank you all
Finn Petersen
02:31:44
Thx to the Commission for this session
Jothan Frakes
02:31:53
Thank you to the speakers and presenters, and Elena's moderation. Appreciate all the information , and to the commission for this session.
MILTON Mueller
02:32:01
Thanks to ICANN/Elena for setting up this excahnge
John McCormac
02:32:13
@Jothan More takeovers and mergers more likely.
Ashley Heineman
02:32:15
Thanks Elena!
Tatiana Tropina
02:32:17
Thank you all — and especially to Elena/ICANN for organising this
Ashley Heineman
02:32:30
You too Olivier and other EC folks.
Keith Drazek
02:32:32
Thanks all, this was very helpful and informative!
MILTON Mueller
02:32:34
Alarming but informative...
Wolf-Ulrich Knoben
02:33:03
Thanks for this informative session
John McCormac
02:33:05
Thanks Elena/ICANN/EC. It was interesting if a little unsettling.
Ann-Cathrin Marcussen
02:33:10
Thank you, Elena and ICANN for organising this webinar!
mark svancarek
02:33:12
Very informative and helpful. Thank you for taking time to present this to us.
Isabel Cristina De Avila Benitez
02:33:12
Thanks to ICANN Isabel De Avila Managing Director .CO
Luis Antelo
02:33:15
Thanks a lot, it was really interesting!
Lucien Castex
02:33:22
Interesting, thanks
Iren Borissova
02:33:26
Thank you EU COM and ICANN/Elena for this useful briefing!
Philip Corwin
02:33:33
Good session. Very useful
Marita Moll
02:33:34
Yes, very interesting and a lot to unpack
ADAM PEAKE
02:33:38
https://features.icann.org/event/icann-organization/nordic-region-workshop-icann-and-its-technical-mission
Rick Lane
02:33:39
Very helpful Thanks
Yrjo Lansipuro
02:33:46
Thanks!
Jakob Zanol
02:33:51
thanks!
Данко Јевтовић
02:33:53
thanks!
Herb Waye
02:33:57
Thanks to everyone for your respectful and professional participation
Geo Van Langenhove
02:33:57
thank you, very informative!